Powerlogger

[WS6]

I'm gonna guess the 3/4 gear output is a problem in the transmission"s electronics....I"ve seen this before only it would not see 3rd gear and go straight to 4th.

And yes,when using the 5.7 chip a WB would only be a spectator....a wise one too because it's more accurate than the NB .

When a WB becomes a player is when one uses the 6.X or speed density chip. The ECM(chip) targets A/F ratio based on what data the WB is reading at WOT.The SD chip may use it more, but I cant answer that.

Allot of guys go well into the 10's on a 5.6 or 5.7 chip....and very reliably too. In fact my GN racing buddy has abandoned the 6.0 chip and had a new 5.7 burnt for his combo. I on the other hand run the 6.1. He says his car feels faster on the older chip version but I know my car IS faster with the newer 6.1 chip.

His WB is still hooked into the powerlogger and it is used strictly for data for me when I tinker with his tune.




...

 

[robert lee]

Alright got it, what WB manf. you recommend? i may look into the 6.1 chip, does away with the maf right? and i guess you don't need a gauge with the WB if using a PL ? as far as the trans goes, all i can think is the l/u wire is not connected due to the n/l T/C.

 

[WS6]

Alright got it, what WB manf. you recommend? i may look into the 6.1 chip, does away with the maf right? and i guess you don't need a gauge with the WB if using a PL ? as far as the trans goes, all i can think is the l/u wire is not connected due to the n/l T/C.

Well?...the 6.1is MAF chip,the SD chip is a speed density or MAP chip. I recommend thePLX brand wideband. Sensor is the common VW sensor and it is easy to wire up.

The speed density chip is geared more to track usage but is certainly streetable. It is also the only chip that knows and uses boost pressures to calculate fueling requirements.

The 3/4 gear problem is not associated with the lockup function. It is more likely the 3/4 gear switches or solenoid problem. Like maybe one or the other is grounded all the time.

And the wideband will be displayed on your scanmaster (if you set it that way) and it will be part of the monitored and used functions of the powerlogger.

Make sense????


.....

 

[robert lee]

Yep make's sense, surprized that you would pick the 6.1 over the SD chip though... also odd that T.T stopped selling WB.

 

[WS6]

Agreed, the SD chip makes more sense on paper for me,but I do drive the car quite a bit on the street. And that's not to say others dont and they aren't happy with it.
It took me months this past winter to decide. I just didn't see the overwhelming praise for it as a compromise chip in the race vs. street usage. It seems it's more of an Alpha-N fueling chip, meaning it does very well in a WOT environment. And if mine wasn't spot on out of the box there is allot of dicking around with the parameters to get it right.

The 6.x versions are chips I'm very accustomed to and can even use them without WB targetting. In fact I ran at Columbus manually fueling the car because that POS LC-1 crapped out on the second pass.

As far as why TT stopped selling WB's is news to me. One of my other GN buddies bought the AEM from him. Now, it works okay, but I don't much care for the smaller scale it uses and once in awhile it reads goofy for no apparent reason.

The PLX is one that I found no negative feedback on and it hasn't given me a bit of trouble yet this year and in fact it's taken me to an 11.55 pass. But allot of that is a testament to how "tight" Eric got this 6.1 for me. I've done very little in the way of tweaking on it and it extremely consistent run after run.


...

 

[robert lee]

So if i'm understanding this right the big diff. between the 5.7 chip and the 6.x versions is the WB a/f auto correction? whereas the 5.6/5.7 you have to manuel correct? i looked at the PLX and i that's what i will buy, not sure i need the combo w/gauge since it will be logged and displayed already but the m-300 tuner looks nice, car int. starting to look like a damn plane cockpit ! almost forgot, where did you weld your bung on the D/P? (WB sensor)

 

[TTAGUY]

Hey Robert weld it the bung not to far from the turbo, and dont weld it so the O2 is down. Angled up, or up. Had one in my wifes GSX.

 

[WS6]

Yes, that's a simple way to understand it....and we must understand that our control of these chips (5.x and 6.x) is limited to WOT fueling and timing only. Idle and part throttle are still the full control of the chip/ECM.

in the 5.x versions you would make a pass and look to see where the O2's ended up under peak load (3rd gear at 100 or so) and add fuel or subract fuel to get the NB in a number range that the car doesn't detonate,let's just say 760 mV.

With the 6.x versions, under WOT the chip now looks at the WB and "attempts" to maintain an A/F the chip is programmed for,lets say 11.00,....you would look at a log of the pass and see if it's struggling to target that 11.0 number and move the BLM number up or down. Make another pass and see if the ECM has an easier time targetting that programmed A/F number. Let's say that 11.00 number is having the car detonating 3-4 degrees at the top of the run. You'd be better served giving the chip a lower target A/F of let's say 10.5 and take a run. Now the car is no longer detonating but is adding quite a bit of fuel to maintain that 10.5 number,....you find that it is adding 7% fuel to maintain that number. If the car is still pulling hard at the top end then I'd add 7% fuel and call it a day....but if it's nosing over and not pulling at 115MPH I'd change the taget to 10.8 A/F and you'd probably find it's only adding 3% fuel. If it's not detonating....and still making power then you're right where you want to be and I would let the car(ECM) add 3% fuel and call it a day.

It seems more complicated as it is read, and it somewhat is, but I feel the WB targetting is far,far better at accurate fuel control than simply using an unheated 0-1.mv O2 sensor(NB) to control fueling.


I put my WB right after the bend of the DP where the catalytic convertor used to be.

and this is the one I use SM-AFR2....no gauge, just 2 outputs for data, only one of which I use. and I bought the version 2 which has a soft start heating element.
http://www.plxdevices.com/product_info.php?id=SEMOSMAFRV2

...

 

[2QUIK6]

I use an Innovate WB unit in the GN. The directions with it specifically said the wbo2 does not need much heat to operate correctly and said to mount downstream away from intense heat, that too much heat can damage the o2 prematurely. I mounted mine just after the bend also right before where the cat would go.

 

[robert lee]

I use an Innovate WB unit in the GN. The directions with it specifically said the wbo2 does not need much heat to operate correctly and said to mount downstream away from intense heat, that too much heat can damage the o2 prematurely. I mounted mine just after the bend also right before where the cat would go.

Did you put it between 10 and 2 oclock?

 

[WS6]

Mine's way downstream too, and probably at the 10 O'clock position.That's the best I could get it.

Widebands have thier own internal,powered heating element to maintain an accurate operating temperature and do not need to be too close to the turbo. I think that closer than 10-12" from the turbo is asking for shortened sensor life. A narrowband on the other hand can live in that hostile evironment.

I ran the Innovative LC-1 for 2 1/2 years and only one of those was a good year. It was constantly needing a free air calibration and I bought 3 sensors for it in 2 summers before I had had enough.Lots of people have ground sharing issues with them but I did not. My problem was the sensor would go to 19.xx-22.00 at about the 1/8 mile and cause the ECM to dump fuel and the car would fall on it's face. A new sensor would cure the problem for about 100 miles but it would happen again. I'm convinced the controller was defective but if you've ever tried to get customer support from Innovative then you bought another brand to solve your problem.

I mean I'm glad people have success with thier Innovative WB's but I can no longer trust them.

 

[robert lee]

It is what it is , the AEM may be a little better but i have yet to hear one single problem with the PLX... maybe why some vendors don't sell certain products anymore ...

 

[jarredsoon]

I have an aem and am very happy with it and also it does not need free air calibration so that makes it easy. I replace it every year and can get it locally, I only replace the sensor not the whole kit.

 

[WS6]

There's basically 2 WB sensors being used in the aftermarket world. The Bosch and the NTK.

The NTK sensor(Honda) is a much higher quality sensor and is allot more tollerant to lead....but it can be almost 2X as expensive to replace.

The Bosch LSU (Volkswagon) is what AEM, Innovative and PLX use. It is a good sensor and relatively cheap. It is not nearly as tolerant to leaded race gas as the NTK.

It seems all the aftermarket companies struggled with the Bosch until the 4.2 ver showed up. Since then I read about less problems and less free air calibration.

So...leaving the AFX (whom uses the NTK sensor) out of the discussion it comes down to the controller.

The Innovative's require special attention to wiring as it ground offset sensitive and it requires a free air calibration once in awhile...which is a pain in the ass but does off peace of mind that it is accurate after each calibration.

The PLX offers easy installation, a wider scale of reading(s) with all the fuels and the option to daisy chain more sensors should you want to put sensors on each collector or after the convertor or whatever.

The AEM is a simple install too, offers status LED's(if you can get at them) and no calibration like the PLX.

Like I said earlier, I've owned 2 of these and tuned on all 3 of them so it's just probably comes down to price and ease of installtion for whatever your skill level is.

 

[robert lee]

There's basically 2 WB sensors being used in the aftermarket world. The Bosch and the NTK.

The NTK sensor(Honda) is a much higher quality sensor and is allot more tollerant to lead....but it can be almost 2X as expensive to replace.

The Bosch LSU (Volkswagon) is what AEM, Innovative and PLX use. It is a good sensor and relatively cheap. It is not nearly as tolerant to leaded race gas as the NTK.

It seems all the aftermarket companies struggled with the Bosch until the 4.2 ver showed up. Since then I read about less problems and less free air calibration.

So...leaving the AFX (whom uses the NTK sensor) out of the discussion it comes down to the controller.

The Innovative's require special attention to wiring as it ground offset sensitive and it requires a free air calibration once in awhile...which is a pain in the ass but does off peace of mind that it is accurate after each calibration.

The PLX offers easy installation, a wider scale of reading(s) with all the fuels and the option to daisy chain more sensors should you want to put sensors on each collector or after the convertor or whatever.

The AEM is a simple install too, offers status LED's(if you can get at them) and no calibration like the PLX.

Like I said earlier, I've owned 2 of these and tuned on all 3 of them so it's just probably comes down to price and ease of installtion for whatever your skill level is.

Thank's for all the help on this Rich, long story short For anyone reading this just buy a PLX and be done with it, second in line is the AEM only because its more $$$ than the PLX & i don't see the diffrence to justify the money between the two but then again not many of us have the $$$ that Rich does.. Btw , how's that new rearend coming along ? you need to make a video of it....:cheers:

 

[WS6]

I'm happy to help...when you cross into the world of WB usage you are becoming somewhat serious about racing or tuning. And it helps to spend your money wisely, the internet is a tough place to decipher "free" information from, but I wanted to share what the last 5 years have taught me.

And I also don't want to come across as a PLX pusher, the other's are fine too and my choice isn't necessarily the best choice for everyone. At the time I switched to the PLX it was still a bit more pricey than the AEM but apparently the PLX has come down in price.

It's still about using any wideband to help a chip or help the owner keep thier cars running as well as possible with the tools available to us.


And the rearend is great! It's got about 1000 miles on it now and if I could muster a complaint it would be that there is still some residual gear whine. But the rearend specifically came with a yellow paper notice telling the user that these rearends will always whine and that Strange WILL NOT warrantee an axle for that complaint.

I guess it's way the gears are set up and the material used in making the gearset.

 

[robert lee]

I must have run all the race gas out, got 1.2 retard at WOT with o2's in the the low 700's today ,don't have much time to fool with it now as i'm about to start on my garage, ( doing the work myself ) and Rich i meant to ask if you put a 1/4 mile gear in your new rearend?

 

[WS6]

If your asking what ratio? I chose 3.42s,if your asking what type of gear I chose, the street/strip gear. I don't remember if the strip gears were softer or not but I chose the one that can take street use....both will whine...now that I think about it I believe the "strip" gears are softer.

 

[robert lee]

Rich, do you have to buy the sm-usb adapter to connect to the PL or laptop ? that is $70 by itself...

 

[jarredsoon]

Rich you got the 3.42 with the strange 12 bolt right? The smallest gear I could get with the S60 is 3.54. It works for me, but I definately didn't wanna go 3.73 or anything like that.

 

[WS6]

Rich, do you have to buy the sm-usb adapter to connect to the PL or laptop ? that is $70 by itself...

Not sure what sm-usb adapter you're talking about but the PL should have come with all USB cables.

If you're talking about the WB sm-usb adapter then you don't need that one. The WB hardwires(one wire from controller) to a lug on the I/O board and all that I/O inputs are sent to the PL via cable and from there the PL sends it to your laptop via USB cable.

Rich you got the 3.42 with the strange 12 bolt right? The smallest gear I could get with the S60 is 3.54. It works for me, but I definately didn't wanna go 3.73 or anything like that.

Yep, 3.42's for me....it may have hindered tire choices for me, but it is what is.



...

 

[robert lee]

Yes i was talking about the WB adapter, good deal that's what i needed to know. I'm still on the fence about which chip to go with, i can see were the WB correction could save a few head gasket's, btw , ordered the PLX WB today so it should be installed in a week or so...

 

[WS6]

Here...get yourself aquainted with the install.

http://www.plxdevices.com/InstallationInstructions/SM-AFRUsersGuide.pdf

You'll choose the "square" pin in the ANALOG plug for your wire to the I/O board of the PL. and everything else should be plug and play, save for the RED and Black power cord hookups.

Leave the termination jumper in place as I assume this is just one sensor install.

Ignore the instruction to solder in caps to filter noise as your power logger already does this for you.



...

 

[robert lee]

Got the PLX WB today, just not sure how to mount the module, look's like something is missing to me, where do you have your's Rich? BTW added 4.7% overall wot fuel and now the NB 02's are 780 or better, also finished the alky (finally) so all i need is some meth so i will leave the fuel where it's at for a min. and see what's going on when it start's spraying... the plan is about 20* timing at 25psi boost on 93/m1 meth... oh yeah, inj DC came way up when i added fuel and i think i will try a WB chip.

 

[WS6]

I just slid my controller up behind the map pocket.If you take off the hush panel and the plastic dash panel above it you can see some space where it will slide up in for a tight friction fit. Cheezy?? yes, but it kept everything close together and I didn't have to fab up some mounting bracket....which doesn't come with the PLX.

Set your alky gain knob on 6 and see how it likes it.Your O2's may come up to 830 or more but remember the stoich of methanol is about half what gas is and you're displacing gasoline with methanol so the correct stioch will average out "fatter" than you think it should.

And sometimes....an elevated DC means the fuel pump is lazy or the FP is low and not rising properly with boost....this all considered if you have a good idea what you have typically been running for DC at WOT.

Okay? or do you need me to break it down a little more.


...