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steering worn out

andre#4

Well-Known Member
I was having a private discussion with another member that turned technical and I would like my ideas to be on the regular board for people to see.

echostatic had tires wearing unevenly, alignment not holding. I told him to beware the mechanics who may be planning on getting swimming pools with the money from the steering repairs. He said he has trustworthy people, and they said it was a worn steering box. I said:

It just occurred to me, a bad steering box probably would not cause uneven tire wear. If the linkage is all good, the left tire and the right tire will stay properly oriented with each other. A bad steering box would cause play in the wheel, but not tire wear. If the alignment was made right, and it is now out of whack, it is something in the linkage. After all, there are no alignment adjustments in the steering box, so it can't be at fault. You can have play in the steering box and still have proper tire wear patterns if the linkage is all perfect. I'm pretty sure about that.

I am not saying you have a good steering box. I am just saying that if the alignment won't hold, and the tires are wearing unevenly, there is something in the linkage that is worn out. Box could also be worn, but Just fixing the box won't fix the tire wear problems. These boxes aren't very tight after 20k miles anyway. They lose their tightness early on in the life cycle, but that does not effect the alignment. If you compare a high mileage tta to a car with a rack and pinion steering system, it will seem loose and worn out. or even if you compare it to a car with a steering box and normal size tires and a normal steering ratio, it will seem loose.

The combination of steam roller size tires and a fast ratio steering box just causes it to lose it's tightness early on. you would not have noticed because you didn't get it new. When these cars are new, they feel like rack and pinion steering. Like you have on a new bmw or new volkswagen jetta or something. A very very slight movement in the wheel causes steering. But that does not last long. It becomes american-feeling after about 20k miles. The big tires batter the steering gear and wear it out. A steering box has a steering gear with only 3 teeth on it. A rack and pinion does the same job with 40 or 50 teeth. SO the wear is evenly distributed. But with only 3 teeth on the gear , it is such a crude device to begin with, it does not take much to wear it out. And it was designed when the steering had 6 turns lock to lock and narrow bias tires. Our cars have only 2 turns lock to lock. They just asked way too much from those poor 3 little teeth on the steering gear. This is why the first and second generation trans ams all have rack and pinion steering conversion kits for them. Someday maybe the 3rd gen will get it too.
 
I was having a private discussion with another member that turned technical and I would like my ideas to be on the regular board for people to see.

echostatic had tires wearing unevenly, alignment not holding. I told him to beware the mechanics who may be planning on getting swimming pools with the money from the steering repairs. He said he has trustworthy people, and they said it was a worn steering box. I said:

It just occurred to me, a bad steering box probably would not cause uneven tire wear. If the linkage is all good, the left tire and the right tire will stay properly oriented with each other. A bad steering box would cause play in the wheel, but not tire wear. If the alignment was made right, and it is now out of whack, it is something in the linkage. After all, there are no alignment adjustments in the steering box, so it can't be at fault. You can have play in the steering box and still have proper tire wear patterns if the linkage is all perfect. I'm pretty sure about that.

I am not saying you have a good steering box. I am just saying that if the alignment won't hold, and the tires are wearing unevenly, there is something in the linkage that is worn out. Box could also be worn, but Just fixing the box won't fix the tire wear problems. These boxes aren't very tight after 20k miles anyway. They lose their tightness early on in the life cycle, but that does not effect the alignment. If you compare a high mileage tta to a car with a rack and pinion steering system, it will seem loose and worn out. or even if you compare it to a car with a steering box and normal size tires and a normal steering ratio, it will seem loose.

The combination of steam roller size tires and a fast ratio steering box just causes it to lose it's tightness early on. you would not have noticed because you didn't get it new. When these cars are new, they feel like rack and pinion steering. Like you have on a new bmw or new volkswagen jetta or something. A very very slight movement in the wheel causes steering. But that does not last long. It becomes american-feeling after about 20k miles. The big tires batter the steering gear and wear it out. A steering box has a steering gear with only 3 teeth on it. A rack and pinion does the same job with 40 or 50 teeth. SO the wear is evenly distributed. But with only 3 teeth on the gear , it is such a crude device to begin with, it does not take much to wear it out. And it was designed when the steering had 6 turns lock to lock and narrow bias tires. Our cars have only 2 turns lock to lock. They just asked way too much from those poor 3 little teeth on the steering gear. This is why the first and second generation trans ams all have rack and pinion steering conversion kits for them. Someday maybe the 3rd gen will get it too.


Hi Andre,

Actually that's not correct. The steering box is a worm gear box and it can be adjusted by closing in on the clearances. If you have a shop manual it will tell you how to do it. I agree that you have a front end problem which can be fixed with new bushings or you may have a bent part, hard to say. Wheel bearings can also be suspect, they don't last forever. The main thing to look for on the box is, can the alignment tech get the the steering wheel in the correct position. It's a common excuse to use 'the steering box is worn'. It's very unlikely the worm gear is worn that bad.
 
I agree with Frank. The steering box is fairly easy to adjust. other problems I've had are loose bolts holding the steering box to the "frame rail", and idler arm, These cars work best with zero toe in.
one of the main bushings to look at are the ones at the top of the struts.
Since these cars are over 20 years old, you will do well to find an alignmrnt tech who was around in the '80's .

Frank, you old fart, glad to see yer still kicken about. (Jim sayes hi, we were just talkin' 'bout you).
Glenn
V6TA
 
I agree with Frank. The steering box is fairly easy to adjust. other problems I've had are loose bolts holding the steering box to the "frame rail", and idler arm, These cars work best with zero toe in.
one of the main bushings to look at are the ones at the top of the struts.
Since these cars are over 20 years old, you will do well to find an alignmrnt tech who was around in the '80's .

Frank, you old fart, glad to see yer still kicken about. (Jim sayes hi, we were just talkin' 'bout you).
Glenn
V6TA


Well Howdy Glenn!

Good to here from you! I talked to Noah, you know, Lynn Brown, a couple of weeks ago and I think we're going to try and make Woodward this year and do some serious partying. It's been a long time since I've seen you guys.
 
Thanks for chipping in V6TA-MI, I did have loose bolts to the steering box. Correcting this improved it a bit, and new tires improved it further. Unfortunately, a metal on metal screeching noise has started up in the front right tire. It's not always there, but when it is, it's usually intermittent but becomes a constant squeal when pressing lightly on the brakes. Turning right seems to make it squeal worse as well.
 
Screetching you describe is probably the wear indicator of the brake pad. they change with no tools in 2 minutes. just a longnose pliars for the e clips as I remember. and you can drive another few weeks (probably) before the rivets start cutting into the rotors, at which time you will hear the grinding. changing rotors is dirty job and might want new bearings @same time if they are cheap enough and Timken brand bearings. No chinese bearings please. good luck finding non chinese rotors though.



I did mention to echostatic about the adjustment in the box and cautioned him to make sure the person who does it knows what they are doing because it will ruin it if you do it wrong. My point was to say that it is not an alignment adjustment parameter. If a car won't hold alignment, it has nothing to do with the steering box adjustment. The slop in the steering should not effect (affect? never knew which word was right) the uneven tire wear. Once you are driving down the road, if all the linkage is correct and tight, and the tires are straight, the car can still go straight with slop in the steering, and it can even go straight on a flat road with no steering input at all. And no abnormal tire wear will occur. (according to my idea).

Also, if you are going to turn the wheels with a sloppy steering box, the relationship of one tire to another will stay the same. (that relationship being messed up is what causes the tires to wear unevenly).

So since the tires relationship to each other stays the same, they don't really know about the slop in the steering box. Only the driver feels that. You may as well blame the driver for the uneven tire wear, if you are going to accuse the steering box, since they both do the same thing. (they both turn the pitman arm)

Just think about driving straight down the road with a very very sloppy steering box. You could be turning the wheel from left to right and back, over and over again, like they do in old movies, and the car will go straight. If the box was really sloppy, the pitman arm and the steering linkage would not move at all. Just the steering wheel. And this would not cause any wear anomalies on the tires, because the tires are unaffected by it.

That is why I say the tires don't know about the loosness in the box. Whatever instructions they get from the pitman arm is the instructions they obey. whatever happens prior to that is an executive matter.

I am not saying I am right about this, I am just trying to clarify my idea so people understand what I was trying to say, because I am still curious to know if people would dispute this idea. (since I am not an all knowing guru of all things, unfortunately.)

I do believe I have a high aptitude for simple engineering ideas like this, and I would like to know if people agree. Or if not, why not. So I can change my idea if it is wrong. Plus I don't want anyone getting steered in the wrong direction.

Drugs are bad, MMKay? If you do drugs, you're bad, mmkay?
 
Screetching you describe is probably the wear indicator of the brake pad.


HA! Hey Glenn!

You really didn't need to wright a book on mechanical engineering. I think I know uh bit about that. I don't think anybody is gonna respond to your thread because they're still trying to figure out what you said!:coffee: But, at least, you know, I know. Say! How bout Woodward this year? Lets invade Pipers pad and get uh bit ROWDY!ttarider
 
Well you might be right about the brakes. I thought it was coming from the front, but since I replaced those recently I ruled that out. It never occured to me that it might be coming from the rear wheel. (Yes, obvious possibilities frequently escape my notice.) I will have to jack it up and give it a spin, see if I hear it.
 
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changing rotors is dirty job and might want new bearings @same time if they are cheap enough and Timken brand bearings. No chinese bearings please.

Not to hijack this thread, but for clarification, no Timken bearings are manufactured at the company headquarters (Canton, Oh) anymore. Some are made down south (Honea Path, SC), some in India, and other places overseas.
 
Spohn is making a Pinto rack and pinion for the 3rd gens...but not for the stock K-member, just the tubular K-member.
 
Screetching you describe is probably the wear indicator of the brake pad.


HA! Hey Glenn!

You really didn't need to wright a book on mechanical engineering. I think I know uh bit about that. I don't think anybody is gonna respond to your thread because they're still trying to figure out what you said!:coffee: But, at least, you know, I know. Say! How bout Woodward this year? Lets invade Pipers pad and get uh bit ROWDY!ttarider

Not guilty on the disertation... Woodward sounds good.

Thread relaed.. Andre is right in what he said.
 
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Howdy Adrea,

You are right! I have no argument with what you said. Again, the box can be adjusted but, you do have to know how to do it and the wear pattern of the gears is peramount (completely needed). I think you explained yourself very well and I agree.
 
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